Kingdom Building Rules Q&A

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Kingdom Building Rules Q&A

Post  Wedge on Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:21 am

I had a list of questions on the Kingdom Building Rules and this seemed like the area to for this topic. I'll send my complaints about the rules by email
:-)

1.The rules imply an army but don't really talk about that. Is there an army/navy/police/civic guard and how does it work?

2. Is there a staff (scribes, secretaries, pages, messengers, etc.) provided for the rulers?

3. Are personal servants (butlers, maids, valet, heralds, etc.) provided for the rulers?

4. Do PCs get additional benefits from the buildings? I.e. if we build a library, can we use it to get a research bonus on Knowledge skills?

5. Are all building/businesses we build public (i.e. belong to the kingdom)? I would assume that jails, barracks, castles, parks, monuments, piers, etc. are public building but taverns, brothels, smiths, houses, etc. are private buildings/businesses (the BP spent on them is for infrastructure not construction or capital equipment).

6. Can we come up with new buildings? I'm thinking distillery: 8 BP must be next to brewery, Economy +1, +500 to base value.

7. Castles are "The home of the city’s leader". Does that mean us? What about Noble Villas and Mansions?

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Re: Kingdom Building Rules Q&A

Post  Bella on Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:40 pm

WilberdGates wrote:
1.The rules imply an army but don't really talk about that. Is there an army/navy/police/civic guard and how does it work? ?

For the most part, you can assume that there is a patrol that goes around keeping the peace in any claimed hex. If you have the buildings like a barracks, this would also be true in your city. There are optional rules for having a standing army, but they are expensive. I will try to post those later.

WilberdGates wrote:
2. Is there a staff (scribes, secretaries, pages, messengers, etc.) provided for the rulers?

At first no. After you start to build up (possibly after 6 months to a year when people start to move out to the area) yes.

WilberdGates wrote:
3. Are personal servants (butlers, maids, valet, heralds, etc.) provided for the rulers?

If you build something like a castle or personal home that is specifically for yourselves, I would say yes. I don't want to go with the rules of having the characters pay for these things as that may limit the desire to build up your kingdom. If it takes months to build up, you may start to want to explore so that you can afford to pay for the servants. I want you to not feel rushed to explore.

WilberdGates wrote:
4. Do PCs get additional benefits from the buildings? I.e. if we build a library, can we use it to get a research bonus on Knowledge skills?

As long as you are inside the city, yes. I would allow it. The bonus would depend on the building of course.

WilberdGates wrote:
5. Are all building/businesses we build public (i.e. belong to the kingdom)? I would assume that jails, barracks, castles, parks, monuments, piers, etc. are public building but taverns, brothels, smiths, houses, etc. are private buildings/businesses (the BP spent on them is for infrastructure not construction or capital equipment).

Please do not imagine BP as "The money coming from your coffers". They can be a little confusing, but BP are NOT money and they should not be thought of as such. They are build points. They have nothing to do with money at all. It might be easier to think of it as the entire monetary / resource system of the kingdom (trees for lumber, farmers selling food in the city, tavern owners renting out beds to travelers etc.

An example would be when a shop in your city sells a magic item, it adds BP to your city. It was not your personal shop that sold it, but a private shop. You can add some of your character wealth to the city to increase BP, but you are probably really only enabling an input of resources into your city, such as hiring some loggers to get some more lumber.

The majority of buildings would be public, privately owned buildings. Things like universities, libraries, jails etc would be owned by the government. As the rulers, you can control access to those if you want.
Does this help at all?

WilberdGates wrote:
6. Can we come up with new buildings? I'm thinking distillery: 8 BP must be next to brewery, Economy +1, +500 to base value.

I would encourage you to do so yes. I would only ask that, if you used something as an example to balance the buildings cost and benefits that you provide it for me as well. That was I can easily say yes, no, or compromise. Some of the buildings that are in the PDF I provided were actually not in the original rules Very Happy .

WilberdGates wrote:
7. Castles are "The home of the city’s leader". Does that mean us? What about Noble Villas and Mansions?

If you build a castle, I would assume that is where you live. Noble villas and Mansions could be owned either by the players, or some nobility or well to do citizens could come in and build them themselves.


All of these were great questions. Let me know if you have more!
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Re: Kingdom Building Rules Q&A

Post  Wakko on Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:12 pm

1. How big is our kingdom going to be (to start)? About 40 hexes?

2. Could we invite a good aligned son or daughter of a minor noble to be our ruler? (Prefer second or third born, one with training). Maybe one who has a reputation of being well liked?

3. Councilor should be Pythia.

4. General should be Specs.

5. Grand Diplomat (vacant for now)

6. High Priest (could we ask that cleric of the Wilderness to take on this temporary duties?)

7. Magister should be Wilberd.

8. Marshall should be Kyras.

9. Royal Assassin (none).

10. Spymaster should be the Bard.

11. Treasure we would need to find someone.

12. Warden we would need to find someone.


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Re: Kingdom Building Rules Q&A

Post  Bella on Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:33 pm

Kyras Cobb wrote:1. How big is our kingdom going to be (to start)? About 40 hexes?

You start with zero hexes.... You get the first hex when you establish the city. You might want to read the part on consumption again. Every hex you claim costs consumption. You have explored the hexes, but you have not claimed them yet.

Kyras Cobb wrote: 2. Could we invite a good aligned son or daughter of a minor noble to be our ruler? (Prefer second or third born, one with training). Maybe one who has a reputation of being well liked?

You are welcome to have someone else rule your kingdom if you want, but it might be more fun to have one of the characters run it. That way you are in total control of it. Just a thought.

Kyras Cobb wrote:3. Councilor should be Pythia.

4. General should be Specs.

5. Grand Diplomat (vacant for now)

6. High Priest (could we ask that cleric of the Wilderness to take on this temporary duties?)

7. Magister should be Wilberd.

8. Marshall should be Kyras.

9. Royal Assassin (none).

10. Spymaster should be the Bard.

11. Treasure we would need to find someone.

12. Warden we would need to find someone.

Bo mentioned the royal assassin spot. Pythia might be better as the grand diplomat. Is Jhod the cleric you were thinking about?
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Re: Kingdom Building Rules Q&A

Post  Specs on Thu Jun 09, 2011 1:40 am

i have no problem being the general since it does use my main stat for its bonus. Smile
Also will we have access to the smiths and stuff once we build them?
Could any of the buildings give us bonuses to crafting /skill checks?
Will we get any discounts from the city's shops?

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Re: Kingdom Building Rules Q&A

Post  Bella on Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:23 am

As mentioned earlier, smiths and other type of buildings are not "yours". They will be privately owned.

The people need to make a living so no discount. You could of course make them give you a discount, but that will increase unrest.

Also, for the bonus on crafting, think about how you would feel if a politician came utopia your store and expected to use your equipment for free. Government libraries and stuff are different
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Re: Kingdom Building Rules Q&A

Post  Wedge on Thu Jun 09, 2011 10:04 am

Kyras Cobb wrote:1. How big is our kingdom going to be (to start)? About 40 hexes?

2. Could we invite a good aligned son or daughter of a minor noble to be our ruler? (Prefer second or third born, one with training). Maybe one who has a reputation of being well liked?

3. Councilor should be Pythia.

4. General should be Specs.

5. Grand Diplomat (vacant for now)

6. High Priest (could we ask that cleric of the Wilderness to take on this temporary duties?)

7. Magister should be Wilberd.

8. Marshall should be Kyras.

9. Royal Assassin (none).

10. Spymaster should be the Bard.

11. Treasure we would need to find someone.

12. Warden we would need to find someone.


I was thinking of we should wait until we actually found our kingdom before discussing this but since you brought it up:

1. The ruler should be Pythia. From the game/rules point of view: Whoever sits on the throne needs the highest charisma score possible to maximize the bonus to the kingdom. From the scenario point of view: she is 'noble born' and was part of the group that cleared out the bandits, giving her a positive reputation in the area. This makes her a better alternative then some foreign noble no one has heard of before - unless there is a well known local with the right attributes.

2. We can - in fact should - find her a husband with high charisma and a lawful good alignment to be a co-ruler.

3. The General, Marshal, Warden offices should go to the Specs and Kyras (their choice). We should try convincing Kesten for whichever post is left open.

4. I agree on the High Priest and Assassin. The Assassin is the only office that does not carry a vacancy penalty so it should be the last one to be filled.

5. Wilberd should be spymaster. From the game/rules point of view: The spymaster is the only office that gets a choice where to apply the rolls so it should go to the character with the highest bonus in either Intelligence or Dexterity for the added flexibility. That means Wilberd or Bo (I think). From the scenario point of view: The spymaster keeps crime down, would you really want to put the a criminal in charge of that?

6. We should try to fill all the positions if we can.

In any case, I have a spreadsheet here: Kingdom Spreadsheet
You should be able to download it, if you want to play with it.

Once we start building the kingdom we can fill in the spreadsheet and try different combinations of players and offices to see what makes the most sense.

From looking at the rules we will have a hard time building up the kingdom until we up the city and economy. (i.e. we will fail a large percentage of the Economy, Loyalty and Stability rolls.) Once we get to a point where make almost all the rolls we can reassign the offices in a less optimal fashion.

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Re: Kingdom Building Rules Q&A

Post  Pythia on Thu Jun 09, 2011 10:22 am

"Find me a husband? I think not" she says with a snort.
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Re: Kingdom Building Rules Q&A

Post  Bella on Thu Jun 09, 2011 10:30 am

Remember the characters don't know about the bonuses so they should ultimately take what fits them best.

Carry on!
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Re: Kingdom Building Rules Q&A

Post  Wedge on Thu Jun 09, 2011 10:41 am

Pythia wrote:"Find me a husband? I think not" she says with a snort.

"You are being an immature baby. It is the responsibility of a ruler to marry and produce an heir."

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Re: Kingdom Building Rules Q&A

Post  Wedge on Thu Jun 09, 2011 10:43 am

Admin wrote:Remember the characters don't know about the bonuses so they should ultimately take what fits them best.

Carry on!

The characters may not know what the bonuses are but it will be obvious that Wilberd is the most intelligence and Pythea the most charismatic (charismatic = personable event though you've been playing her like a spoiled brat).

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Re: Kingdom Building Rules Q&A

Post  Bella on Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:10 am

I think that if you are still seeing her as spoiled you are reading her actions wrong. She is not used to doing stuff. She has never swept before. No one taught her to do stuff like that so she is not comfortable doing it. At first she would find it embarrassing. When Svetlana shows appreciation for the help, she starts to feel it feels good to help. In the stories, most of the time she has either learned her lesson or did the right thing in the end. An example is pip's bear. She wasn't questioning it to be rude. She was more surprised it was allowed at her age. She was actually starting to get ticked at her dad and how he controlled her life (which the party has no clue about yet).

In the entrails topic she is even showing concern for Kyrass, which is different than when you first met her. There was more to the initial story and her attitude when you met her than you are aware of as well. I have not said everything about her yet. I have informed Vash about some of it, though.

I don’t remember any spoiled actions in the topic where the party escorts the farmer and Pip home. I will re-read it later, but I think her actions have changed quite a bit since the beginning.

With your character background, I’m surprised your character would tell her to marry to have an heir. She is trying to stop doing things the aristocrat way. She is seeing that there is a better way to live. If she marries, it will be because she wants to, not because someone tells her she should.

At first she may very reluctantly agree to be the ruler. She hated that life and does not want to return to it. If she sees that the ruling class can actually help the people instead of control them, she will become more comfortable with the ruler role.
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Re: Kingdom Building Rules Q&A

Post  Wakko on Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:54 am

I am about a third of the way through the document. I might not finish it by Saturday.

Pythia would make a great ruler, but what is her main attribute? Wisdom or Charisma?

So many roles to fill.
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Re: Kingdom Building Rules Q&A

Post  Bella on Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:59 am

CHR. I think it is like 18.
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Re: Kingdom Building Rules Q&A

Post  Wakko on Thu Jun 09, 2011 1:00 pm

Admin wrote:CHR. I think it is like 18.

I thought it was Wisdom, since she is a cleric type.
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Re: Kingdom Building Rules Q&A

Post  Bella on Thu Jun 09, 2011 1:03 pm

Nope. It's Charisma, like the sorcerer.
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Re: Kingdom Building Rules Q&A

Post  Wedge on Thu Jun 09, 2011 1:04 pm

You're right. Pythia has been learning to behave more like an adult and less like a spoiled aristocrat. Her growing maturity would be another reason why she would make a good ruler. My comment earlier about her being a spoiled baby was a ploy to get her to accept a need for a husband as a benefit to the kingdom.

Wilberd's background does say that he dislikes aristocrats but that is only because they use their birth, inherited wealth and family connections to get ahead instead of their abilities and skills. If a character has the skills and abilities to justify his wealth, position and social standing Wilberd would not hold his birth - whether aristocratic or common - against him.

As far as building a kingdom is concerned, Wilberd would determine a plan that has the maximum chance of succeeding - remember he's a genius (Int =20!!!). I could see him using Minor Image to show graphs and tables (ala Ross Perot) to demonstrate the benefits of his plan to the rest of the group. Pushing Pythia to get married would be an obvious (at least to Wilberd) way to improve the kingdom's chances. This is both from the rules point of view and in character. (historically royal marriages and birth of heirs have been great boons, improving economies and stability).

Of course, Wilberd has little ability to convince the rest of party to follow his plan - the can refuse...

This brings me to your statement:
Admin wrote:Remember the characters don't know about the bonuses so they should ultimately take what fits them best.

That statement illustrates the fact that the rules for kingdom building are not very realistic.

Think about the people you know: you can make a pretty good guess as to who would make a good leader, a good diplomat, etc.

For example: If a member of a party was very good at settling arguments between party members and good a winning arguments without making the loosing party mad at him (i.e. good Diplomacy and Sense Motive skills) - he would obviously make a great Diplomat. This would be obvious to anyone who learned of these actions. As far as the rules are concerned, however, skills,experience and past actions don't make any difference to how much that can character contributes to running the kingdom. Do you see the disconnect?

Anyways, while I'd like to rewrite the rules to be more realistic I'm not suggesting that we do that. I do think that we would know which character (PCs and NPCs) would be able to contribute best to which office. In character, this would be based on their demonstrated skills and past experience, for rules purposes it would be based on their ability modifiers - that means we would know those modifiers.


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Re: Kingdom Building Rules Q&A

Post  Bella on Thu Jun 09, 2011 1:27 pm

WilberdGates wrote:

4. I agree on the High Priest and Assassin. The Assassin is the only office that does not carry a vacancy penalty so it should be the last one to be filled.

5. Wilberd should be spymaster. From the game/rules point of view: The spymaster is the only office that gets a choice where to apply the rolls so it should go to the character with the highest bonus in either Intelligence or Dexterity for the added flexibility. That means Wilberd or Bo (I think). From the scenario point of view: The spymaster keeps crime down, would you really want to put the a criminal in charge of that?


I was mainly speaking to these two points when I said

Admin wrote:
Remember the characters don't know about the bonuses so they should ultimately take what fits them best.

#4 especially.

I have never pictured wilberd as a spy. He has never done anything spyish. The Magidter fits way better (in my mind).

Hopefully this clarification in my post clears up what I meant.
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Re: Kingdom Building Rules Q&A

Post  Bella on Thu Jun 09, 2011 1:41 pm

WilberdGates wrote:

This brings me to your statement:
Admin wrote:Remember the characters don't know about the bonuses so they should ultimately take what fits them best.

That statement illustrates the fact that the rules for kingdom building are not very realistic.

Think about the people you know: you can make a pretty good guess as to who would make a good leader, a good diplomat, etc.

For example: If a member of a party was very good at settling arguments between party members and good a winning arguments without making the loosing party mad at him (i.e. good Diplomacy and Sense Motive skills) - he would obviously make a great Diplomat. This would be obvious to anyone who learned of these actions. As far as the rules are concerned, however, skills,experience and past actions don't make any difference to how much that can character contributes to running the kingdom. Do you see the disconnect?

I honostly don't, as to me, what you just described is what you are doing. Pythia would make a great leader or doplomat, Kyrass a marshal, specs a general etc....

The players are seeming to go into the roles they would excel at.

WilberdGates wrote:
Anyways, while I'd like to rewrite the rules to be more realistic I'm not suggesting that we do that. I do think that we would know which character (PCs and NPCs) would be able to contribute best to which office. In character, this would be based on their demonstrated skills and past experience, for rules purposes it would be based on their ability modifiers - that means we would know those modifiers.

Again, I was mainly refereing to Point #4. The royal assassin has no negative so it should be last filled. That is pure out of game knowledge Cool .

Book 2 actually states which NPC's would be best for each role as well as what role they would prefer.

I think the rules are "good enough" in keeping managing a kingdom simple and managable without bogging everything down. Could they be better? Oh yeah. Paizo or a 3rd party publisher may expand on these rules one day to make them more realistic.
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Re: Kingdom Building Rules Q&A

Post  Wedge on Thu Jun 09, 2011 2:18 pm

Admin wrote:
Again, I was mainly refereing to Point #4. The royal assassin has no negative so it should be last filled. That is pure out of game knowledge Cool .

I don't agree.

The characters would know that:
  • without a Marshal to organize patrols and enforce justice in rural and wilderness regions there would be banditry that would cause a negative effect on the economy.

  • without a Treasurer to organize tax collection and mange the treasury the economy would be in world of hurt and the kingdom would not be able to collect taxes

  • etc.


So basically the characters would know what each office does for the kingdom and what affect a vacant office has.

From the characters point of view(i.e. in character), the organization of the kingdom would look like this::
Party and NPCs gathered round:
"We need someone to organize patrols in the rural area. If this does not happen, bandits and monsters will raid farmers and impede the transport of goods to the city. This would be a real bad thing for the economy. Let's create an office of Marshal. Who do you think will do a good job at this? ...(OOC we would follow the rules and assign somebody to the Marshal position)
...
We may want to eliminate the worst troublemakers as a lesson to others. Doing this could be very effective in improving loyalty and decreasing unrest. On the other hand, the consequences on not doing this are insignificant. Since we don't have enough talent at this point to fill all the other offices that are more critical we should postpone filling this office until we have a filled all the others. (OOC we leave the Royal Assassin post until later.)
"

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Re: Kingdom Building Rules Q&A

Post  Bella on Thu Jun 09, 2011 2:32 pm

I can 100% see your point. The party may not even ran an assassin as it may be viewed as evil. Im not going to influence the pc's in what role they play. I may have an npc say no to a post if it does not fit their background. I don't expect you to know everything about them though. The npc database may help. Ill add molly later lol.
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Re: Kingdom Building Rules Q&A

Post  Wedge on Thu Jun 09, 2011 2:46 pm

Admin wrote:

I have never pictured wilberd as a spy. He has never done anything spyish. The Magidter fits way better (in my mind).

You may be right but I see the Spymaster as the Chief Intelligence Officer of the kingdom (like the head of the CIA, FBI, and NSA combined) and the key word there is intelligence! His job would be to gather and correlate information gathered by others not interrogating subjects, sneaking into windows or developing sources by himself. From that point of view, he would be a pretty good spymaster.

On the other hand, would Wilberd be more interested in being the principal magician of the kingdom (A high prestige position- "That should prove my worth to all those idiot at the university!) or the chief spy who's identity is best left secret (keep publicity to a minimal)? Probably the former, unless ... if the kingdom is going down hill fast and only by Wilberd becoming Spymaster does it have chance.

Probably won't come to that though ...

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Re: Kingdom Building Rules Q&A

Post  Wakko on Thu Jun 09, 2011 6:17 pm

Regarding the following: WTF!!!

Does this mean we will find a human head in our beds?

Animal Crime Lord Activity (continuous): A large animal (such as a horse) is awakened and has set itself up as a crime lord in a random city district (or the whole city if ithe city has only one district). Make a Stability check. If you succeed, the animal is caught and is charged with criminal activity. If you fail, the crime boss reduces all
Economy bonuses from buildings in the district by half (rounding down).
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Re: Kingdom Building Rules Q&A

Post  Bella on Thu Jun 09, 2011 6:52 pm

Lol. Is that an event in the book? Im using something else for the events. I don't know if that will be on my list.
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Re: Kingdom Building Rules Q&A

Post  Specs on Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:44 am

k that sounds hilarious

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